Episode 99 – The Yard Automation Revolution: Inside Outrider With Ira Renfrew

Autonomous Yard Operations Robotics: In this episode of Over the Air, host Bill Brock sits down with Ira Renfrew, Chief Product Officer at Outrider AI. They explore the often-overlooked world of distribution yard operations. With 20 billion tons of freight moving globally each year, these yards represent a critical yet inefficient link in the supply chain. Renfrew, drawing from his rich background, shares how Outrider is transforming these facilities with electric autonomous vehicles and innovative robotics.

The conversation delves into fascinating technical challenges, including the development of a robotic arm system for trailer connections, and reveals why focusing on the “boring 80%” of yard operations might be the key to successful automation. Renfrew offers unique insights into product development strategy, customer adoption, and the delicate balance between human operators and autonomous systems. The discussion also touches on broader industry trends, from warehouse automation to humanoid robots.

Whether you’re interested in robotics, autonomous vehicles, supply chain innovation, or the future of logistics. This episode offers valuable perspectives on how targeted automation solutions are reshaping traditional industries.

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“Over the Air” features unfiltered conversations with executives about their IoT journeys. The mistakes they made, the lessons they learned, and what they wished they’d known when they started. In each episode of Over the Air, our expert guests make bold predictions, reveal unpopular opinions, and share stories you won’t hear anywhere else.

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Transcript

Hey, everybody. Welcome to Over the Air podcast.

Bill Brock here, CEO of Peridio. And today we have a very exciting episode with Ira, Chief Product Officer at Outrider AI. All right.

Good morning. Thanks for joining the show. Thanks, Bill.

Thanks for having me. Awesome. Well, over the last few episodes, we’ve been interviewing more and more robotics companies and really excited about what is truly happening on the edge and the edge AI space.

And today we’ve got Ira Renfrew from Outrider AI. And Ira has a really deep history in robotics. If you wouldn’t mind, just tell us a little bit about your background.

Yeah. So I’m personally just super passionate about creating a world where we have robots around us, particularly in the outside environment. And I’ve been pursuing that passion across a number of different robotics projects and opportunities.

Started off my robotics career after business school at iRobot, really the sort of granddaddy of consumer robotics and worked on as well as robots. I worked on outdoor robots there. And I spent some time at Amazon working on autonomous delivery robots.

And that really got me into sort of this world of autonomous driving. And then I came over to Outrider a couple years ago to be the Chief Product Officer and really help shepherd the product into sort of final completion and then scaling. And, you know, a couple of things really jumped out at me about Outrider when I was making the move.

One is that, you know, I think when you look at this autonomous vehicle space, anytime you can find an opportunity for an application where you can constrain the environment and sort of simplify the problem, that’s really appealing. And so at Outrider, you know, our vehicles operate on private property. It’s generally pretty flat, a limited set of other actors who are all private employees rather than the general public.

And when you compare that to sort of general over-the-road autonomous driving, it’s then a simpler problem to solve, sort of that long tail of situations that your vehicle can get into is much shorter. It’s still a hard problem, but, you know, certainly easier than general over-the-road driving. Another thing is that I really like robotic solutions that just sort of fit into existing businesses.

You know, a lot of times in robotics, we see new robotics ideas that are not just related to the adoption of new technology, but also the adoption of sort of new business models or new ways of doing. And that can be really exciting, but it also increases the hurdles you have to get over to get people to adopt and start scaling your product or your service. And, you know, one of the things with Outrider is the product has been designed from the beginning to fit very neatly into existing operations and just sort of get up and running with sort of minimal lead time and minimal effort, which is exciting.

And then the final part about Outrider that reeled me in was, you know, the team. We’ve assembled a cross-functional team from sort of all the sort of adjacent areas, autonomous vehicles, robotics, automotive, logistics, SaaS, and brought those people to bear on the problem that we’re trying to solve for customers. So that brought me over to Outrider and sort of continues my journey of getting robots in the world around us.

Thank you for that. Really, really great overview. What’s the differences between indoor and outdoor robotics? That was cool to hear you like specify.

I do outdoor robotics. Yeah, I mean, indoor, you know, you can control the environment more generally. And then, you know, obviously, outdoor, you’re exposed to the elements, the weather, to changing seasons.

So there’s considerations you have to do around weatherproofing as well as just sort of handling a more dynamic outdoor environment. One of the reasons why I sort of specifically geeked out on outdoor robotics is because those are the ones we’re much more likely to see. You know, there have been robot arms in factories for a long time.

Increasingly, billions of dollars have gone into warehouse automation. And if you work in one of those facilities, you see them. It’s pretty amazing to see these automated systems running.

But in terms of sort of like the general and broad adoption of robotics, I think when they’re in the outdoor world around us, that’s when as sort of a society, we’ll really see them and I think appreciate the benefits of them. Yeah. And tell us a little bit more about Outrider for those who haven’t looked at the website.

It’s a very, very cool product. Yeah, so what are you guys doing? Sure. So I’ll sort of take you through the sort of the origin story of Outrider.

Our founder, Andrew Smith, is a previous founder in sort of the logistics tech space. And so as a result of his prior work, he had spent a lot of time in distribution yards. And he came to realize that there were really, you know, sort of this transition point between the warehouse and the open road, you’ve got 20 billion tons of freight moving around the world each year, almost all of that is going to pass through, you know, a port, an intermodal facility or distribution yard, or multiples of those.

And today, a lot of that freight is moved around those facilities with purpose built diesel yard trucks. That’s what they’re called. They’re sort of like, you know, like over the road semi trucks, but a little bit smaller, more maneuverable.

And, you know, one of the issues with those yards is, while there’s been a lot of attention on, you know, over the road autonomous driving for long haul trucking, there’s been a lot of attention on automation inside these facilities, there’s been very little investment and attention on automating the outside of these facilities. So you’ve got, you know, facilities that are still being run the way they’ve been run for decades, you know, you’ve got some where it’s a literally a clipboard, others where it’s sort of coordinating everything. You’ve got these diesel trucks, sometimes just sort of idling, spewing out fumes and sort of local environmental contamination, as well as over the road drivers who come in, they might find a congested yard, and then they’re idling for hours, that’s preventing them from getting back out on the yard and doing useful work.

And so, you know, it’s really kind of this like choke point in the global supply chain. And I think, as with many things in the global supply chain, we really felt that and saw it during COVID, where you had, you know, distribution centers shut down because, you know, the workforce was out sick and suddenly, you know, you didn’t have somebody driving your yard trucks and moving the trailers, you know, around the facility or to and from the dock doors. So anyway, Andrew realized that there was this choke point and these inefficiencies and realized that there was an opportunity to come up with a solution that would, you know, automate the yards, make them more efficient, make them more sustainable, also make them safer, right? By pulling the human out of the cab of the truck, you’ve almost inherently made that yard a safer place because you’ve eliminated the possibility for, you know, a human to get injured while working on the yard.

And so he set up Outrider and, you know, Outrider’s focus since day one has been developing a solution that’s really holistically meeting customer needs. And I was just mentioning in my intro, you know, really designed to just sort of drop into operations and be ready to go. So anyway, that’s Outrider.

We automate these yard trucks. We take essentially a custom spec, but otherwise off the shelf yard truck, we upfit it with components, sensors and compute to make it all. They’re all electric.

That’s right. So then we make them autonomy ready. And then our focus is really on developing the autonomous driving software, as well as sort of the orchestration and control software that is ultimately what the operating our autonomous system.

What have been some of the harder technical challenges you’ve had to solve so far? Yeah, a few along the way for sure. You know, I think one of the things that’s particularly hard and that we’re really proud of is what we call our trailer connect system. And so when you’ve got a yard truck or actually any large truck attaching to a trailer, there are electrical and airlines that get connected from the tractor, the truck, to the trailer.

And that really enables the trailer to be pulled by the tractor. The electrical lines also operate the lights on the back. That’s a task that is actually very easy for humans to do.

You know, humans are sort of amazing beings in terms of our flexibility and capability, but they’re sort of connecting this. It’s called a glad hand, but connecting a fastener from the truck to the trailer. And you need to do that to be able to move a trailer.

So if you want to automate these trailer moves, you need to be able to do that. It doesn’t really make sense to have a human running around making those connections and then an autonomous vehicle moving the trailer, at least for our use case on these distribution yards. So we realized that needed to be automated.

And again, it’s one of these things that’s very easy for a human to do, but actually pretty challenging to design a robotic system to do. And so over the last several years, we’ve invested a lot of effort. We’ve built a massive database of images of these glad hands, trained AI models on how to connect to them, and then also design custom hardware that makes that connection to the glad hand.

So that’s been one of the really tough challenges. So do you have like an actual robotic arm or like, what does that look like if you’re, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. There’s some videos online that people can dig up, but basically we mount again, an off the shelf robotic arm onto right behind the cab of the tractor. And after we’ve what we call hitched to the trailer, so connected the tractor to the trailer, then the robotic arm deploys and makes that glad hand connection, putting air into the airlines and releasing the brakes of the trailer so that you can actually pull the trailer and the wheels will turn.

We went to the automate conference in Chicago this year, and we’re looking for like the hot new AI stuff that was happening there. And it seemed that in the robotic arm space, there’s really not like, I’m sure, like, if you really know everything, there is no better robotic arm. It probably is very interesting, but it seems that a lot of the innovation in that space has already happened.

And it’s cool to see folks coming in and building layers around that. And now you can do like really high impact things by building technology around these well-known interfaces and pieces of equipment. Yeah.

Anything to say about that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think robotic arms have been around for a long time, like I mentioned, in manufacturing facilities.

So I think that it is a pretty mature technology at this point, and it does then enable high quality, very robust, very reliable. Price points have come down somewhat. I think there’s room for them to come down further, but it does then enable applications on top of the robotic arm.

I think I mentioned before, but we put a lot of effort into customizing what we call the tool on the end of the robotic arm. That’s the part that actually is making the physical connection. So while the arm is, you could say, commodity, the tool on the end is very custom designed to our application.

There’s, I would say, a lot of innovation and on our side IP in that tool. I was chatting with a robot arm manufacturer recently, and I do think there’s opportunity to be thinking about arms in the context of mobile platforms like ours, and thinking about being more power efficient, lower cost, lighter weight. Our truck’s pretty heavy, so it can carry a heavy arm, but I think there’s room for innovation there, but the arms for manufacturing, which we can easily use in our use case, I agree, have become fairly commoditized at this point.

I don’t want to get too down the road of safety. I know that’s always, we have to tread carefully on what’s certified, not whatever, but I think that putting the idea of a mobile arm on the back of a truck, that would be a hard thing to regulate and know that you’re not swinging in the wrong direction. Clothes lining somebody or something.

Yeah, we put a lot of thought into when the arm can move, and then we do have full sensing capability around the vehicle, so we always have a clear sense of whether the area immediately surrounding the vehicle is clear or not, as well as the ability to contain the arm. So you do have an arm, an arm is on the vehicle, not on the dark. It’s on the vehicle, that’s right.

Yeah, that’s crazy. Very cool. Yeah, it’s pretty neat.

It’s one of the crowd pleasers when people come see a demo is to see that arm deploy and do its magic. I’m really pumped to have a product person here rather than just an engineer, because I think the business of building businesses around robotics is really fascinating. And I know you’re really proud of some of your customer-orientated, or customer-first orientation.

And can you talk a little bit about the actual customer at these yards, and how you go about thinking about serving their needs? Yeah, well, I think it’s typical to a lot of enterprise customers where there are multiple stakeholders, a number of people who are interested in part of the purchase decision. So I think a lot of the folks that we interface with, they might have a corporate innovation group who is scanning for new technologies, evaluating them, doing pilots. And then, of course, there are the operators on the ground at any given facilities.

Oftentimes, there might be a general manager of a facility who’s got very clear operational metrics that they need to hit. And then there are also other teams who might be involved in vehicle purchases, who are considering the merits of electrical versus diesel, et cetera. So there are a number of stakeholders that we usually interface with.

And we spend time explaining the holistic benefits of the Outrider system, as well as where we see our roadmap going and the opportunities that it presents into the future. And then we also put a lot of effort into working very directly with the site team. So while the operators on the site may not be decision makers in terms of signing the contract, we also pay a lot of attention to feedback and reactions from the other drivers on the site, and thinking about how they can interact smoothly and really understand what our vehicle is doing.

Certainly, initially and even ongoing, like part of our product concept is that we operate in the presence of human-driven vehicles. So there will continue to be human-driven yard trucks operating on a site, operating around the Outrider system. And so we think a lot about how those human-driven yard trucks and the automated yard trucks should interact with each other and how to communicate to those drivers what our system is doing.

And you mentioned previously, you guys are doing about 80% of the logistics on the yard, but you’re not trying to solve the absolute like hardest of hard. Yeah, you know, it goes back to this concept of the sort of that long tail, right? By focusing on our environment compared to over-the-road driving, the long tail has already been decreased. By leaving a portion of the moves on the site for human drivers to do, it further decreases that long tail of tricky situations.

Because again, humans are really good and really flexible at handling those kind of one-off or unique situations, particularly tight parking spots, for example. And that allows our system to really focus on more of the repetitive and kind of mundane tasks that do represent, you know, 70-80% of the trailer moves on a yard. So we really focus on nailing those and then leaving that sort of the trickier stuff to the humans to do, which I think is a really great division of labor that sort of plays to the strengths of each type of solution.

Yeah, and I’m sure that some of these jobs become very mechanical, boring, and error-prone when you’re doing just the simplest of things kind of get checked out. Yep, they do. And we often hear from, you know, like recruiting departments, HR departments, of how much trouble they have with recruiting drivers and retaining drivers.

And so, you know, oftentimes they’re actually pretty interested in this idea because it sort of resolves that challenge in finding staff. It also means that the staff who are on the site have the opportunity to be upskilled on working with alongside and even assisting the automated systems. So I think it also offers the opportunity for a job that, you know, isn’t as repetitive and involves also working with automated systems, which can be pretty interesting for some folks.

What industries or regions… I’m from Chattanooga, Tennessee. We have deep roots and shipping like 75-24. There’s a lot of trucks that go through there, so I would hope that folks in Chattanooga are looking at this.

But like, what are some areas that you guys are getting interest either regionally or industry focused? Yeah, I mean, I would say that interest is strong nationwide and even globally. We’re, I would say, in a wonderful position to have plenty of demand for what we’re building. I think it’s very clear at this point that the future of the distribution yard, the intermodal facility, and the ports, the future is automated, or at least mostly automated, like we were just talking about the 80% or so.

And then I think when, you know, when we think about industry, you know, anyone who ships a lot of goods has this problem and, you know, maintains fleets of yard trucks or employs a 3PL to maintain fleets of yard trucks. So, you know, we see interest from a variety of industries as well as logistics providers sort of across the board. So, employees, explain the 3PL aspect here.

I assume 3PL would just be getting things to and from the facility. There are people who just get hired contractors to do this locally or? Yeah, that’s right. Right.

So, some of the big 3PL providers, as well as smaller ones, right, they’ll employ a set of staff whose jobs are to operate these yard trucks on facilities. You know, the 3PL has been contracted by another company to provide that service. And the Outrider system can easily fit into that model as well, where, you know, the 3PL would bring on some essentially automated drivers from Outrider.

To provide that same kind of yard truck service to their clients. That is cool. That is cool.

So, a 3PL that just buys only Outrider gear. Yeah, I don’t know if it’ll be only, you know, again, sort of that sort of division of labor and focusing human drivers on what they’re really good at. But certainly a tool that could be useful for those kind of companies.

Yeah. What was it like learning this space? And you’re coming from my robot to, I mean, it could not be a different industry. So, what was that like? Yeah.

Well, you know, I did have a good stopover at Amazon, where I was focused on last mile delivery, but learned a lot about Amazon’s logistics network. So, I had a pretty good sense of sort of the broad space. But what was it like? Well, it was like going out and spending a lot of time on distribution yards, you know, sort of as a product person, you know, I believe strongly the best way to get up to speed on something is get in the middle of it, like be the fly on the wall and really see what’s going on.

So, early on, I visited all of our sort of live customer sites, spent time observing the yard. Also, in my first couple of months, I spent almost two weeks straight at one of the facilities, just watching it day in, day out, including some late nights, and really getting a feel for the kinds of activities that happen in these distribution yards, as well as sort of the ebbs and flows through the day and over the week, because there is dynamism there. You know, a Monday morning might look totally different than a Thursday afternoon, for example.

So, you know, I was really just spending my time immersed in it, and then both my team and I try to spend as much time as possible talking with customers and learning from them. And so, that’s another way that I’ve been able to learn the space. It’s always exciting, I think, to, you know, before business school, I was a consultant, you know, that life is very much sort of switched from one thing to the next.

And so, I do very much enjoy that sort of learning curve, where you’re learning the lingo and getting familiar with things. It’s one of the fun parts of the job. This one has some very interesting lingo and terminology.

Since we first met, I was trying to tell people about it, and I just kept brutalizing the terminology over and over again. And the best I could come up with is, like, tugboats for… Yeah, I like that. That’s a good analogy.

I haven’t heard that. And it’s funny, you know, these people talk about yard dogs, hostlers, spotters, you know, there’s all these different sort of, like, slang terms for, you know, either the truck itself or the truck and the driver together and the tasks that they’re doing. It’s kind of a fun spot.

So, you’ve seen a lot in the robotics space. You’ve definitely done a very impressive tour. There’s a lot of attention on AI and robotics right now.

I like your product-driven approach to this and in picking specific use cases and industries to focus on. What are you saying is, like, the next wave of really interesting robotics applications? Yeah. Well, again, going back to that sort of customer-driven approach, I think sometimes the robotics industry has sort of fallen into the trap of getting really excited about the robotic about the robotic solution and neglecting sort of that holistic solution or really neglecting the full customer need.

And I think recently we sort of seen a shakeout in robotics and autonomous vehicle space, a couple efforts sort of wrapping up or pulling back. But, you know, I think there’s still some really strong players in the space and we’ll continue to see pilots and I think initial scaling of autonomous solutions on the road, whether it’s long-haul trucking, middle mile, you know, obviously the warehouse automation space is just on fire. Again, billions of dollars have gone into that.

And it’s another one of those things where it’s sort of very much turned the corner where there’s no question now that almost all warehouses will be significantly automated inside, if not completely automated and lights out. You know, we hear great things about Wabi in the middle mile space. Kodiak seems to be continuing pretty strongly.

I think another thing that we’re excited about, it’s very directly relevant to us, is this transition to electric yard trucks. Again, like if you go back to when Outrider was founded, it was sort of like, really, do you think they’re going to be electric? So now it’s, you know, most of the conversations it’s like, okay, we’re, you know, customers are just planning out how many electric trucks to buy and like how quickly to sort of convert the fleet over. I have to give a shout out to Orange EV, who is the maker of the truck that we’re using.

They’ve really been a pioneer in this space, and I think have really gotten that segment going. So anyway, a bunch of, and this is just sort of a few examples. I think there are a number of other ones doing interesting work, and, you know, I think innovation continues, automation continues, but there has been also a little bit of shaking out, sort of maybe clearing out some of the over enthusiasm from like the late teens into the early 20s here.

How long do you think it takes for the whatever industry you’re targeting to really get their head around robotics applications and autonomous, like you mentioned, the warehouse automation. So there’s probably, there’s probably some engineering team at the really slick POC 30 years ago, or who knows, and people are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. So like, what’s, what’s the process there? Yeah, I feel like there’s always, you know, there’s like the science fiction reference from like the 60s or 70s.

Yeah. There’s the super cool idea that was sort of piloted in some corporate innovation studio in like the late 80s or early 90s. Right.

And now there’s the stuff that’s actually making out out into the world. I feel like you often sort of see that progression. You know, so from that time scale, it takes a long time.

I think, you know, when you get to the point of, okay, we’re going to build something and put it out in the world. You know, one of the sort of joys and sufferings of working on these products is that they do take some years to build and to mature. You know, usually there’s a pivot or a tweak along the way that adds some time.

So it is, it is a space where you have to be patient. And, you know, when I think a lot about sort of motivating teams, and you got to motivate people for the long run, it’s a marathon, it’s a series of sprints, but it’s certainly not just, you know, the 100 meter dash to get something out in the world. I think, you know, I think, you know, warehouse automation probably, you know, Kiva system was at it for a decade before Amazon bought them, then Amazon took its time, but, you know, eventually scaled it up very rapidly.

And then that spawned a number of other companies that have served other customers. So I don’t know, I think in our space, you know, we’ve been at it for several years now. But putting the finishing touches on a scalable product, and I think very optimistic about the years ahead in terms of really starting to scale this up.

So, you know, I think in the sort of back half of the 20s here, we’re going to see a lot of things coming to fruition and coming to scale. Yeah, it’ll be common sense. Hey, you need need automation if you’re going to succeed.

Humanoid on the warehouse, you think that’s going to be a good application? Yeah, I think it’s really interesting. You know, there’s obviously a lot of a lot of big investments being made and a lot of sort of interesting things. It’s another one where the question is sort of when.

Sure. At least my understanding of it is, you know, currently you still do pay sort of a heavy tax for putting the legs on the robot as opposed to putting wheels on it. When you operate in an environment that’s flat.

I think the benefit of legs is maybe it seems to me a little bit harder to justify. But they can do parkour. But they can do parkour.

Yeah, the PR benefits of it, I think are easy to justify. And, you know, it’s amazing some of the things that have been done. And I actually not too far from Boston Dynamics here in the Boston area.

And it’s just exciting to see how they keep pushing the envelope. But in terms of, you know, being ready for prime time and being rolled out broadly, we’ll see. I think, you know, there’s also this part of say robots generally right now are purpose built and sort of purpose trained and designed.

The advancements in AI and particularly generative AI have been really interesting in terms of maybe broadening the applicability of any given robot to a broader set of circumstances or having more flexibility. And so I think as AI continues to advance, that’ll keep opening up more robotics applications and more sort of general purpose applications, because it’s, you know, you need both sort of that general purpose physical capability, as well as that general purpose reasoning, path planning and behavior capability to make use of the physical capabilities. So, you know, I think we’ll keep seeing new applications unlocked as that progresses.

Yeah, it’s these are crazy, crazy days. I don’t know what the world is going to be like 10 years. And then of course, the challenge too, is like doing it on the edge and doing on a mobile platform, right? Cutting that power cord, cutting the data cord, you know, and I think, you know, we’ve seen Boston Dynamics go through this the early demos, you know, they were cabled up.

More recently, like they’ve cut the cord and that’s pretty amazing, right? But can you get a battery life that is sufficient for the use that you want? Can you handle the data loads? You know, can you have enough processing on board? And then, you know, how do you get data back up to the cloud when and as needed? Those are questions that need to be solved. Again, being in an indoor environment makes that a little bit easier, and they can put charging and upload stations wherever you need them. Being in the outdoor environment makes it a little bit harder, which is, you know, an interesting challenge that I’ve had to think about across a couple companies now.

So, anyway, there are definitely some challenges there in terms of making it, you know, moving from that demo to the product that can be out there operating, you know, reliably for hours on end. Well, I think we’re about out of time. Thank you for sharing these insights.

What is next for you guys? What’s on the roadmap? What are you most excited about? Just the scale or are there other products that you’re developing? Yeah, there’s a lot to be excited about. I think, you know, as a startup, you know, we try to be laser focused on our priorities and avoid distractions. So, you know, really focused on starting to scale up the Outrider system, delivering value for our customers.

When we look a little bit further down the road, there are adjacent markets that our core technology can easily spread into. There are also additional capabilities that we can add on for our existing market. Can you share what an adjacent market would look like now? Yeah, I mean, so I think, you know, we’re very focused on distribution facilities at the moment, but intermodal facilities where, let’s say, containers are transferred, let’s say, from train to trailer.

You know, it’s a sort of very clear extension. You know, there’s some work going on in port automation right now. That’s also a very clear extension on what we do.

It’s easier or harder? They’re different. You know, it’s different. So, you know, both will usually come in, there are these large cranes that offload the shipping containers off the boats, and then those shipping containers will be loaded onto chassis trailers, so those sort of flatbed kind of style trailers.

So, it’s a different environment because you have these sort of canyons that are created by the stacks of trailers, and so there’s some different navigation hurdles, and then the traffic flows and the actors and sort of the busyness of those facilities is a little bit different as well. Awesome. Well, this was great.

Really appreciative of your time. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, so, yeah, I think we’ll just close it on that, and yeah, stay tuned for the next episode where we learn more about robotics and the edge over the year.

Thanks, Arun. Awesome. Thanks a lot, Bill.

I appreciate the time. All right. I hope everybody enjoyed that recording.

A really great time diving in on building businesses around robotics applications. Please don’t forget to comment, rate, and listen to it, and thanks for joining. Have a great day.

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